| To: Savant who wrote (444) | 2/27/2023 5:53:04 PM | | From: sense | | | | Mostly a massive failure...
Two major reasons...
One, herbicide/pesticide over-spray by a local wheat farmer killed a lot of trees outright... damaged most of them, and, damage was not limited to just the orchard. They killed a number of 100+ year old giants on our property, and throughout the neighborhood bordering their wheat fields for a couple of miles. That in result of spraying an herbicide intended to prevent emergence of weeds... a pre-emergent... but, they didn't spray it until after the trees had budded out, well outside legitimate boundaries. The worst impacted of them dropped flowers, leaves, entire shoots... the best of them "quit growing" and didn't grow again the rest of the season. As fruit trees are highly dependent on the first three or four years of growth... losing a key year... means, even if they survive, a decade or more of delay being imposed. So, also invalidating the results of any "study".
And, not just plants. A local wildlife rescue operation lost recuperating birds they kept in outdoor aviaries... the spectacular growth of the quail and pheasant population, which we'd helped enable... all suddenly gone. Our elderly neighbors became ill... and moved away.
Two, not unrelated... an intense eruption of fireblight... which was uncontrolled in the neighboring orchards whose owners had abandoned them.
But, prior to the disasters occurring... I learned a whole lot in a short time. Got to evaluate qualities of fruits from a large number of cider varieties... and a couple of dessert apples...
And, did complete a good number of other projects, which helped out others... improving the local direct to consumer farms... tomato trials, strawberries... and got them adopting quite a bit of permaculture in how they're growing them... Selected seed sources for local oaks... and helped them plant a lot of oak trees... which will mean acorns for the pigs...
My own experience with the cider varieties seems it is being duplicated by others... not only at the application level... but at the nursery level... While there are some spectacular cider varieties out there... they tend to be "very high risk" for growers, only in part because of disease susceptibility... and, far more... too often ignored... older varieties tend to be far more susceptible to the chemical assaults imposed by neighbors that are now a routine part of agriculture. Modern varieties, intentionally or not... are selected to survive in the chemical dominated landscape that defines our modern reality.
So, the nursery operations have been throttled back... making it harder to get heirloom varieties as easily as was true, for a time... But, that's at a time that "interest" has soared... pandemic driven, largely... so that obtaining trees to plant is harder, now... and costs two to three times what it did a short while ago.
The key takeaways... there are a solid handful of "antiques" that are fairly robust... along with a handful plus of modern varieties that not only incorporate quite good disease resistance as the objective.. but, also, have better chemical tolerance as an inadvertent selection factor...
If I were starting over to make a small planting to use in cider production... I'd go organic... meaning... plant only that handful of highly disease and chemical resistant apple varieties... knowing the product wouldn't be nearly as good as it might be... but having a product being a better plan than having a dead orchard.
Have also relocated... still have access to the (surviving) plant materials I've left there... but now working on enabling new efforts in places that are far more isolated from other agriculture...
Should note... the difficulties almost exclusively impacted apples... All the others I planted... a range of plums, and a range of tart cherries... shrugged it all off, and kept going. The plums in particular, encountered difficulty only in result of growing too fast... and not being properly pruned after I left them...
But, French heirloom prune plums... and "Thomas Jefferson's favorite" plum... spectacular. Cherries I planted were English Morello, Northstar, Sure-fire... and a variety I don't see listed any more, anywhere... that was a seedling found growing wild in Manitoba... super cold hardy... All proved valuable... and, from a growers perspective, they compensated well for each other in terms of the annual crop variations imposed depending on seasonality. But, if you've never had a cherry pie made from freshly picked English Morello... you've never really had a cherry pie... Unbeatable flavor, but, perhaps... not a quality that is optimal for being preserved... which others seem to do better.
The level of care I provided to the cherry and plum plantings... was zero. They had no problems...
My biggest regret from that couple of years... had nothing to do with the other disasters... was entirely self imposed. I spent years searching and sorting citrus plants for sale... finally found one, that had been growing in the ground in a back yard in New Jersey for ten years... said to be tolerant to -10F below... a Chinese import from before they cracked down on that... Got a couple, and grew them outdoors in pots for three years... during which time they blithely survived temperatures as low as -25F... which decimated the trifoliate oranges I grew as controls... Very excited by that... purposed to plant them out... so, moved them for that purpose... then, forgot about them... and, without water during a heat wave, killed them.
And, now... can't locate them any more... as it seems "someone" has made that impossible... and has disincentivized the grower from making them available... So, the future of the citrus industry of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, western Montana, and coastal/southern British Columbia... died in my back yard. |
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| To: sense who wrote (445) | 2/27/2023 6:14:04 PM | | From: Savant | | | | cold hardy citrus....darn, that's a shame...
plums, I have 3 varieties...one of which is a yellow Shiro plum...hardy down to at least minus 15 F...perhaps more.... I really like that one.
For some reason, perhaps excess heat & drought this past summer ...one of them died.
I also like growing potted figs...need to take them indoors during the winter.
Fresh, jam, and fig liqueur |
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| To: Savant who wrote (446) | 2/27/2023 6:57:12 PM | | From: sense | | | | I bought trees from a variety of sources for my project... intending to compare them as cost vs tree and graft quality, subsequent survivability, etc.
The number of nurseries has proliferated... was booming back then... and many of those that were new back then are now better seasoned... or, a few, no longer as competitive. I think the access to the heirlooms will be sustained... in spite of the disaster engulfing the core of the apple collection in Oregon... as a lot of those nurseries are both tree providers and cider producers themselves...
But, still, I bought trees from Trees of Antiquity that I judged were "the best"... in every aspect... they also the source of the Jefferson Plum. The only issue there today is... lack of availability... which pushes you into searching elsewhere for sources... some of which, obviously, are buying up ToA's stock, and reselling it a 2X or more.
From my time in the Dakota's... learned not to buy "local" varieties from Arkansas, or even suitable varieties the plants of which had been grown out in more southern climes... rather than imports from Manitoba...
That wasn't an issue for the ToA trees I grew east of the Cascades...
From my time in the Puget Sound... learned to not ignore local potential in the "wild" or "escaped" population... Spent an entire day tasting through the fruits growing in a large, dense grove of crab apple trees... which remains among the most challenging "tasting adventures" I've ever endured... One of my preferred selections, taken from an "apple tree forest" growing in old ditch where the Experiment Station used to dump the clean-up from tree fall coming off nearby crab-apple and apple tree trials... is now marketed as "Puget Spice"... which, unfortunately, I did not include in my trials... as it was "not yet available", then...
I did work to extend that awareness... in future efforts... Spending time poking around in eastern Washington, eastern Oregon and Idaho... I found derelict orchards that have survived until now... without any care... a couple of them in spite of growing right next to wheat fields... Its clear that a lot of the trees growing in those sites now are not the originals, but are seedlings that have survived... along with a couple of very large, very old trees that carry on... One of those I found on a ranch I visited repeatedly until I caught the owners outside... and stopped to chat... They had one big happy tree, golden skinned fruit with texture like a honey crisp, but with the crunch, an intense rush of sugar... peach/cotton candy/apple... and so juicy, each bite left juice dribbling down your chin... They also had a couple smaller relict survivors, all varieties unknown...all of which had been carried to that spot by the founders of the ranch, the same family living there now... the great (?) grandparents carried them while crossing the country in a covered wagon... in 1854...
There is more interesting potential out there, I think... than is being appreciated... particularly in either the genetics by rigorous selection, or by the way they grow more resiliently in the wild as forest plants... seeming to insulate them both from disease and chemical assault... in spite of being exposed, and unprotected... |
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| To: sense who wrote (447) | 2/27/2023 10:12:52 PM | | From: Savant | | | | "They had one big happy tree, golden skinned fruit with texture like a honey crisp, but with the crunch, an intense rush of sugar... peach/cotton candy/apple... and so juicy, each bite left juice dribbling down your chin."
reminds me ...About 50 yrs ago, had an old varietal winesap apple tree...was about 30 yrs old, at least when I acquired it...had much better sugar/acid balance than the newer types ...next to it was a stump that was at least as old, or older...
One day a small tree grew out of the stump...maybe a seed from the winesap...don't know...after several years, it had fruit that was golden...sweet, crisp, and juicy...delicious.. Unfortunately, it got chemically poisoned...and then the winesap died......and then a tart pie cherry tree died...wonderful flavor also. |
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| To: Savant who wrote (448) | 2/27/2023 11:14:36 PM | | From: sense | | | | One day a small tree grew out of the stump..
Most people not aware that an old tree that dies... might not actually be dead for a long time. The root systems of old trees can carry on for a long time after the trunk fails...
Worth looking for in relation to old trees in the forest... with elders sustaining "communication" with younger plants through root networks, long after the above ground portion of the tree has died, and even rotted away, not leaving much evidence of what going on below...
Sadly, became relevant recently to the Pacific Northwest's granddaddy apple tree...
Vancouver’s Old Apple Tree dies at age 194
Oldest Apple Tree in the Pacific Northwest Lives On
Local nurseries over there were selling trees derived from it a while back, don't know if still are... but, also, the fruit from it wasn't all that much to get excited about... its mostly a novelty thing... although the longevity of it suggests it might be a good choice for breeding... as obviously well suited to the region, and long lived.. |
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| To: sense who wrote (449) | 2/27/2023 11:44:53 PM | | From: Savant | | | | The stump was at least 30 yrs old, prolly longer.
The sapling came out of a crack in the top of it...that's why I figger it was a seed from the winesap next to it...and was a throwback from whatever the hybrid winesap was.
The golden fruit was larger than the winesaps. The winesaps had a long storage life, too.
I miss all of them, though |
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| To: Savant who wrote (450) | 2/28/2023 2:09:26 AM | | From: sense | | | | Its funny how stuff like that connects to memory so well...
I remember as a kid, about six... so, sixty years ago... having an older couple my folks knew bring us a basket of apples they'd grown... big, yellow skinned... I thought "Golden Delicious"... but, boy were they good... and, no, not a grocery store Golden Delicious... but a well and carefully grown Grimes... not at all the same thing...
Why should I remember an apple I ate sixty years ago... as clearly as I do ? |
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| To: Savant who wrote (448) | 5/8/2023 6:49:32 PM | | From: sense | | | | Stopped by a small vineyard / winery last week. Was standing outside chatting with the owner/winemaker when I stopped mid-sentence without thinking and uttered a "holy crap"...
We were standing in the garden next to the house... underneath a large old tree... and I suddenly became aware that it was a cherry.
It was obviously a tree with some risks associated with it... large limbs leaning out over the house, clearly looking like they're going to fall on the house... sometime... likely soon. They said... "yeah, but, we can't bring ourselves to take it down".
The large "limbs" on the tree were joined around and rose straight from the base, each bigger than you could reach around... and then spread outwards. But, they weren't "limbs" exactly... rather than the remnant joined circle of now very mature sports that had long ago formed up in a ring around the core of the original tree... which was still there as a long dead core still poking up from inside the ring. The "limbs" were probably 60 years old... the visible core, poking out 10 feet above ground, was much larger around, and was probably already at least that old before the sports started. I'd be surprised if it wasn't 150 years old... but it could be much older.
The geometry of it is questionable... and each "limb" leans away from the dead core... but, each is healthy enough otherwise. It was in full flower, and, they say, makes a large crop of tart fruit each year... all of which goes to the birds... given no one wants to climb two stories up into a weak tree to try to net it...
I'll do some digging and see what I can learn about the history of the site... and maybe find a probable limit on its age that way...
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| To: sense who wrote (452) | 5/8/2023 7:50:16 PM | | From: Savant | | | | Wonder if they could use cables to support the ...limbs/trunks.
That's a big cherry tree...mine are about 15 ft.
Once knew a neighbor that had a two story Queen Ann cherry tree...yellow/blush red fruit...yum
Could find a fruit picking drone, to harvest, maybe |
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| To: Savant who wrote (453) | 5/8/2023 10:22:25 PM | | From: sense | | | | They have structured a sort of basket design of heavy duty chains between limbs to try to contain the risks...
Had friends in Sacramento with an own rooted Queen Ann... as tall as the Eucalyptus in the neighborhood...
The cherries were great... a lot of them... but... impossible to pick them.
You didn't want to stand under it when the wind picked up... |
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